S2 Ep3 - Numerology in Vedic Astrology and Enneagram with Katee Glass

Numerology in Vedic Astrology and Enneagram

[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome

[00:00:00] Fiona Marques: Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Vedic Astrology podcast. My name is Fiona Marques and I'm your host for today's episode. And today I have with me a guest, Katee Glass. And we are going to be exploring Vedic Astrology and Enneagram and the sort of numerological language that is shared between these two systems or that is also quite different between these two systems.

So Katee and I met as students on the Asheville Vedic Astrology Apprenticeship program, and one of the first assignments on that program is to really immerse oneself in the Numerology of Vedic Astrology because we can think about Vedic Astrology as being a symbolic language. We can think about it as being an energetic language of Planets, at some level there's a real mathematical and number kind of language of Astrology.

And we always ask students in that first semester to write an essay about the numerological progression between three signs. And Katee and I were talking about this one day and discussing how it takes time for that Numerology to sink in. It's a very profound, in some ways, it's like the simplest, bare bones way to look at Vedic Astrology.

And you see all of those yogas that we love so much in Vedic Astrology are very much number based. If we're looking for a financial yoga, we love the numbers "2" and "11". We're looking at an Astrology yoga. We love the numbers "5" and "8" and all of the variations and complexity that comes from that. The imagery that comes from that comes down to these bones of the numbers of Vedic Astrology. 

And then later on in our conversation, I realized that Katee has a background in many things, including Enneagram. And I know that it has a Numerology all of its own. So I invited her along here today to enlighten me because I really don't know hardly anything about Enneagram and for us to have a discussion about the numbers in these two systems.

So before we dive into all of that, Katee, I want to thank you for making the time to join me here on the Vedic Astrology Podcast. And I would like to invite you please to introduce yourself to our listeners and say a little something about yourself and also how you became involved in Enneagram.

[00:02:45] Katee Glass: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, so my name is Katee Glass. I am a student as well in the Asheville Vedic Astrology program. And I also have a business called Inner Science. It's a amalgamation for lack of a better term of archetypal discovery. I consider myself to be a guide for self-discovery: helping people to come back to their truest selves. A little bit further back in my journey, even at a young age, I had this really strong passion for understanding how people were unique and what drove their behavior. And so this led me to study, Research and Consumer Behavior at Penn State.

And after graduating college, I embarked on probably I, a 10 year journey at this point to better understand myself and, will forever be doing that through ancient and contemporary archetypal modalities. I had some really interesting opportunities in my work to be trained in Myers-Briggs, Clifton Strengths and Enneagram in my day-to-day work. Weekends I studied to become a certified yoga teacher, Ayurvedic Wellness Counsellor, astrologer and also Human Design Practitioner. So my breadth and depth of archetypal interest is, pretty expansive. But using all these tools, I say that I help my clients to decondition from, societal, parental or otherwise external narratives so that they can understand their unique gifts and fulfill their soul's purpose.

Enneagram is one of those tools that I used to do that and most often I like to say Enneagram is the bridge tool, for those maybe not interested in the metaphysical initially. Enneagram is a great way to conceptualize that for them, even though many people don't know it has metaphysical context in history and then, perhaps serve as a bridge to other things.

So it's it's a really wonderful tool. Excited to share it.

[00:04:38] Fiona Marques: I think we have many podcasts in us because we share a similar background and we've slated that we will do an episode about Myers Briggs sometime in the future. But today let's look at Enneagram and and the "Numbers" between Enneagram and Vedic Astrology, for those of us, like myself who really don't know very much about it, can you give us just a short contextualization of what this tool is? For example it's a self-select tool, is that right? Whereas Astrology, that the birth time lays out the map. Is Enneagram something that people identify with and choose their own typing based on the, what they feel fits for them?

[00:05:25] Katee Glass: There are many different styles of quizzes and ways to get to your number across, the interwebs. But it is a what I would call a respondent led tool where you are answering either through what I would call like a Likert scale of very likely to very unlikely (sometimes it's a bit dualistic, yes or no, depending on how you, what program you find) but it is all your personal answers and how you feel like you show up in the world.

[00:05:49] Fiona Marques: And where does Enneagram come from?

[00:05:51] Katee Glass: Let's see if I can synthesize this one. If anyone wants to read the depth of it, because it is a a very, very deep history, you can find more on www.enneagraminstitute.com/the-traditional-enneagram. But if I were to synthesize it it's actually a modern synthesis of a number of ancient wisdom traditions.

The person who originally put the system together was Oscar Ichazo. And he journeyed in Asia gathering knowledge before returning to his home continent of South America to put together this systematic approach. It's, and it's interesting to synthesize because it has a complex body of teachings on psychology, cosmology, metaphysics, spirituality.

And so the Enneagram symbol has roots in in this, these ancient modalities and can be traced back as far as the works of Pythagoras actually. And it's, without going into too much detail, Enneagram is basically the ability to synthesize all of that into the core essence of ego, if that makes sense.

[00:06:53] Fiona Marques: So just like Astrology, the history and the birth and the growth and the nurturing of this system is steeped in lost time. There's lots of complexity about how Vedic Astrology has come to be and also about how Enneagram has come to be. We could dive into so many interesting subsets of these systems, but let's stick to our main initial inspiration, which was to compare the Numerology because we know that Enneagram has 9 types and they are identified by number. So that sort of puts it front and center that numbers are important. 

In Vedic Astrology, as westerners, we tend to think of the star signs as having their archetypal names like Aries, Taurus, Gemini, and this helps us to identify some of the energies of that field of space. But fundamentally, especially if you're a Tropical Astrologer, those 30 degrees of space that we call a sign are 30 degrees on the ecliptic, which is what we see from Earth of the orbits of the Sun and all of the Planets. They move in a very thin band of space that we call the ecliptic. And we can divide that 360 degrees of the ecliptic into 12 portions of 30 degrees. Which if we want to, we can give them their archetypal names of Aries, Taurus, Gemini, et cetera. But we could just fundamentally call the 1st 30 degrees of that ecliptic "1" and the 2nd 30 degrees "2", and the 3rd 30 degrees "3". So more like a clock face, we could have called those Zodiac signs by a number rather than by their archetypal name. 

And that's why in Astrology there is this underlying Numerology because each sign is actually a number. And then each House is a number as well to get these very complex like you were talking about, matrix between the number of the sign, the number of the House and the Planets have their own affinity with various numbers.

[00:09:17] "1" in Vedic Astrology

[00:09:17] Fiona Marques: So if we begin to examine these numbers, let's talk about the "Number 1" in Vedic Astrology. And then we could contrast that with "Number 1" in Enneagram and see, see what we find. So if we ground ourself in this very first 30 degrees of the ecliptic, this is the part of the ecliptic where, if you live in the Northern Hemisphere, the Sun, its rays have just reached horizontal on the equator as it comes up to make, in the Northern Hemisphere its Summer journey. So it's high in the sky journey and this first 30 degrees that has the "Number 1" we think of as having a very initiatory energy. So the "Number 1" is that impulse to begin. And of course as western astrologers or modern exposure to Astrology, we think of that as Aries. And we all credit Aries with being that taking a risk and making a start and jumping in with both feet. However, this is really linked to being the first number. The number that begins this ecliptic journey.

We think of this space as being related to Dharma that is related to the auspicious life path, a sense of righteousness and direction. And when we think of it in terms of being related to the House, the "1" has an energy of the beginning of the life path, the body and the personality. We also think about the "Number 1" as being an active sign, a sign that takes action, and it's really the beginning of the "Hero's Journey". 

There's some lovely imagery that goes with the "Number 1" Jamini describes it as 5 Rats and Cats, which I guess is that kind of, there's a lot of impulse to do things. It might not necessarily be directed yet. It's just the energy to begin the potential and all of that excitement. 

So these are some of the ideas that we would connect to that Numerology of "1" in Vedic Astrology. Let's hear about the "Number 1" in Enneagram, which could be completely different. So I'm now clearing my mind and Katee could, would you like to share with us something about the one from Enneagram?

[00:11:55] "1" in Enneagram

[00:11:55] Katee Glass: I loved hearing your descriptions of "1" within Astrology. Even if we all study similar things, what comes out of us, of course, is unique to the individual. And so there are actually quite a few things that made connections in my mind.

"1" in Enneagram is definitely also action oriented. It's called the Reformer or sometimes the Perfectionist and their underlying motivation is to do the right thing. Think of this as the Hermione Granger of the Enneagram for any of the Harry Potter nerds out there. 

Within Enneagram - there are these subtypes of what motivates us, self-preservation, sexual or social. It's really interesting because it is very much having to do with activities. So the Pioneer subtype want to organize the physical environment the need to work hard. The Evangelist will want to create zealousness in their work and relationships being the best at all times. And the Social Reformer will likely, seek a secure role and the clear set of rules and groups in situations to make society better. To be honest, it, it does have quite a bit of action, but this kind of has a Virgo undertone, if that makes sense. But it's, and it's falls within the Body Triad, ironically. You'd think this is very head, but it really comes out in the form of taking action externally - in a lot of ways.

[00:13:14] Fiona Marques: Interesting. Because as you were speaking, I was picking up a lot of Mars Energy, which we associate Mars with Aries. And that kind of initiation and action and even a sense of social justice or reforming can be Martian: wanting to see one's ideals or not even one's ideals, the ideals implemented in reality.

Okay, so maybe we've got a little bit of link between "1" and "1".

[00:13:41] "2" in Vedic Astrology

[00:13:41] Fiona Marques: Let's , boldly move into "Number 2", which is the second sign in the Zodiac, which would be Taurus, the second set of 30 degrees on the ecliptic. The also, this number resonates with the Second House, so all of these "2" energies what we are talking about, whereas the "Number 1" was the initial impulse and is seen as a Masculine space, "Number 2" is our first Feminine sign on that pathway along the ecliptic. It is a place of gathering resources and stability. So all of that fire and impulse that came in "Number 1", now realizes that there's a whole lot of material resources that are going to be required for this adventure of the "Hero's Journey" and that marks this second space on the ecliptic as an earth sign where material resources become important. 

It is a fixed sign, meaning that is wanting to create stability for this initial impulse that was so exciting in Aries and full of the Rats and Cats running around. The fixed sign of Taurus, this "Number 2", is going to try to provide a container that grounds and earths this impulse.

When we talk about the statement from Jaimini that relates to this, it says "Taurus, in that case, a quadruped". And we can think about how solid it is to have those four feet on the ground. Nice and steady and grounded. And this is also a number related to the Artha life path. That is the path of working and providing resources, Artha, the path of creating or gathering the resources that will sustain life. So this is some of the energy that we can relate to the "Number 2" in Vedic Astrology. I wonder how that relates to Enneagram, if at all. Katee, what did you hear that made sense over there?

[00:16:10] "2" in Enneagram

[00:16:10] Katee Glass: Quite a bit actually now. , I'm thinking about Planet orientation. "2" does have quite a few Venetian qualities, the ruler of Taurus. And "2" is called the helper or the giver. And it's typically, it's motivation is about making the personal connection, but within the subtypes there's the Nurturer: creating very supportive safe relationships specifically around preservation needs actually, which would be very related to Taurus. There's also the Lover subtype, which is about bringing out the potential of others with personal attention. And then also the social subtype being the Ambassador: linking people together to fulfill ambition and sometimes leading behind the scenes. So , there is quite a Taurian undertone to this actually in some ways. I also get some Cancer here too. But yeah definitely Venetian undertone.

[00:17:01] "3" in Vedic Astrology

[00:17:01] Fiona Marques: Interesting. Let's move into "Number 3", which in, in this play between the Masculine and Feminine balance moves back towards the Masculine. And we can also feel that "1", the initial impulse has a kind of, almost explosiveness: it's a beginning. "2": we want to settle and ground and gather resources. But "3" is about this dynamism. When we have three objects interacting with each other, three energies, it's it's dynamic and unpredictable. And three has that quality of exploration that if we are on the "Hero's Journey", we could think about the third stage of that "Hero's Journey". That third 30 degrees of the ecliptic is where we get to test out our skills and see how far we can push ourselves to be capable of fulfilling this "Hero's Journey".

In the archetypes where we call it Gemini, we can think of the two human archetype with their club and the other with the lyre that it's about skills and exploring, what we can do with tools. So the "Number 3" has a lot to do with tools. It also has a lot to do with peers. We see that with the archetype of these two humans, that their brother and sister or they're two equals. So the third, the "Number 3", can relate to all of our friends and people in our peer age group network. 

It is a mutable sign. So it's the first of our mutable signs, meaning that it is both active and stabilizing at the same time. It's got both of those energies. And it is a Kama House, or the "Number 3" relating to the Kama energy of our, again, our pathway of exploration of desires. What are we here to explore? What are we interested in? The Kama path gives us a bit more freedom to personalize our journey here on, on the Planet. 

And Jaimini has a word associated with Gemini around itchy itchiness. So there can be a little bit of that discomfort or the ants well, in Australia, we say ants in your pants. I don't know where that applies to anybody and anyone else that speaks English, but it's got an energy that, that wants resolve things and try out things and experiment with things. It's adventurous and it builds our courage because we use these tools to explore our environment. And it's associated with air element, spaciously expansively exploring our environment are some of the things that I would associate with the "Number 3" in Vedic Astrology.

[00:19:55] "3" in Enneagram

[00:19:55] Katee Glass: Beautiful. Yes, for "3" in Enneagram there are also some links. It's often equated to an archetype called the Performer or the Achiever: achieving recognition for success. But there's actually quite a bit of Masculine and Feminine polarity that goes on here and finding the balance there. So perhaps, the twins within Gemini.

Within its subtypes, there's almost finding the balance amongst action versus being receptive. The self-preservation subtype is called like the Company Man or Woman. So it's aligning with the goals of something bigger to obtain security.

There's also something called the Movie Star the sexual subtype specifically around Masculine and Feminine. So the ability to balance that to be, the center of attention or on stage with charisma. And then also a subtype called the Politician, knowing how to adapt and obtain social skills for group productivity.

So a big focus on like communication with the self, communication with others and linking that to ultimately be seen. So it has this material undertone, but also a little bit Leo in a way as well. 

[00:21:06] Fiona Marques: I love what you've brought up there, Katee, about communication, because I didn't mention that it's something we really associate with "3", isn't it? That the networking, this peer thing that we're all connected, especially these days all the tools that we use to communicate. Here I am with my microphone and my USB port into my computer over the internet using a platform that connects to your phone. It's quite the tool experience, isn't it? We humans loving our tools and here we are using them to communicate a very "3" experience. 

[00:21:41] "4" in Vedic Astrology

[00:21:41] Fiona Marques: Okay. And then "Number 4" in Vedic Astrology moves once again towards the Feminine and once again, we have this stability of that even number for the four legs of the table or the four legs of the quadruped, giving us that stability. And it is associated with the stability of the emotions, finding a home. 

So having been on the "Hero's Journey" of receiving this mission, the impulse. Finding the material resources, then exploring them through "Number 3". It is "Number 4", that we gain that stability, that we trust the self. We're at peace inside the self that we know, "I think I'm going to survive this experience because I've proved with my courage in "Number 3" that I can do this". So there's a self-esteem and inner peace that's associated, inner contentment, associated with the "Number 4". 

It is a Water sign, meaning that it's also associated with our emotions and comfort that comes from knowing one's emotions, of being comfortable in the water. It's when we feel safe that we can let our guard down and the emotions can flow.

And yet, as we know in the Archetypal Zodiac imagery it's Cancer, the Crab. An animal that is at home, on the land and in the water, and that is adept at moving between those two environments and moving sideways doesn't have to attack life front-on, it's learned that way to, to adapt and flow with the earth surface and with the water surface. So crab, being able to take advantage of both of those spaces. 

Often we think of it being associated with the Heart center and with the Moon because the Moon is ruled by Cancer. It is once again an action sign. It's a cardinal sign. So this "Number 4" does have a sense of taking action. And in terms of its life path, the "Number 4" is associated with that evolutionary spiritual life path, the Moksha life path. Indicating to us that it is through our inner peace, through our comfort with our own emotions, the openness of our Heart center, that we can achieve enlightenment, we can achieve that spiritual transcendence through the Heart center.

These are some of the things to talk about with the "Number 4" in Vedic Astrology. What about the "Number 4" in Enneagram?

[00:24:40] "4" in Enneagram

[00:24:40] Katee Glass: This one actually has probably the most connections that I have seen so far, or at least that might be my own bias because I have quite a few things in Cancer. But but "4" in Enneagram is called the Romantic or the Individualist, and it's all about the quest for personal authenticity. And I should have mentioned previously "1", is part of the Body or the Gut Triad. "2", "3" and "4" are all part of the Heart Triad. And "4" is is most honestly probably the most Heart based. It is specifically around, it deals a lot with emotions. Sometimes "4"s can have difficulties with emotional intensity specifically like comparing oneself to others. But their exalted expression, to use an astrological term is more so about being in touch with the emotions and transmuting them.

There's a couple subtypes, the Creative Individualists: the ability to, let's say pursue creative projects and do it authentically with this spirit of their innermost selves. And also this other subtype, the social subtype specifically called the Commentator: so overcoming feelings of shame and finding honor and guarding the authenticity and integrity of a group. 

Very much a deep complex number within any Enneagram, specifically dealing with the emotions and using that outwardly and going not just deep in the emotions, but externalizing that to be of use on land. Kind of like the crab can go, can do both.

[00:26:08] "5" in Vedic Astrology

[00:26:08] Fiona Marques: Yeah. Okay. We are finding some interesting correlations and differences. Let's have a look at "Number 5", back into our Masculine energy, and for the first time revisiting the Dharma path on our "Hero's Journey". So the inspired, auspicious action for righteousness is also being activated by this "Number 5". 

When we think of our very stable "Number 4", with the four legs of the table touching the ground, "5" then gives us the freedom to improve. It's got this energy of creating of being creative. So the "Number 5" being creative because we've already got the four feet on the ground, so everything's stable. Now we can build on top of that, we can create something new and create a legacy that is unique, something that we've contributed in this lifetime. So an energy of improvement. And it is associated with the Sun, which also has the righteous vision and that soul kind of Sun energy. So very powerful "Number 5".

But also, once again, taking us a little bit on a journey out of safety. So whereas at "Number 4" we had stabilized, the "4" represents the home and real estate and physical land, where we would look in the chart for buildings or homes or, solid bricks and mortar, "5", once again with this uneven "Number 5", takes us on a journey to find our creative expression and travel through the wilderness to find perhaps our own kingdom. Like the Lion, we're, I guess we're using the "4", the "Number 4", to be able to stand on top of the table or the cliff or whatever it is to get a view out over everything. We want to have that vision for where are we taking this "Hero's Journey".

[00:28:08] "5" in Enneagram

[00:28:08] Katee Glass: Wow. Yes, very much. Related to "5" in some ways. So "5" begins the Mind or the Head Triad and in Enneagram and it's called the Observer or the Investigator. And it's about acquiring knowledge and expertise. A couple of the subtypes specifically, you talked about a kingdom, there is a subtype called the Castle Defender. It's about seeking safety and autonomy whether a castle or a cabin both retreating and renewing in some ways. 

There's also a sub tape called like the Agent, where it's about keeping things confidential to ensure autonomy and freedom of movement actually. And then also a subtype called the Professor, which is about seeking mastery of something language symbols, totems, but sharing that knowledge in the social role. It's like the systems of society. So quite a few overlaps there as well.

[00:29:03] Fiona Marques: Yes, there are. And at the same time, I really hear "Number 8" in that one. So when we get to "8", we have to circle back. 

[00:29:10] "6" in Vedic Astrology

[00:29:10] Fiona Marques: Yeah. Alright. But let's keep going with our numerological journey into "Number 6" in Vedic Astrology. "Number 6", even number, brings us back towards the Female energy once again. This would be the six-th 30 degrees of the ecliptic. It would be connected to Virgo if we were calling the signs by their Archetypal name. This is also an Artha path, House or sign that helps us know that it's about work. And it's about giving our focus to all of that improvement energy that we found in the "Number 5". It's about taking that vision and now turning it to the material world and, like an Artisan, applying our attention every day to craft and perfect this material object or the material world that we live in. So "6" has a focus on the practical things that we need to do every day to make the vision of the improvement from "Number 5", turn in into reality. 

At the "Number 6", there's a lot of stability. So we've now not just got the four legs of the table on the ground, we've got six. So it's can be a very contented space, but that also means as it is an Earth sign, it can begin to feel a little heavier or stuck. It's got a really nice material connection, but obviously too much of that can sometimes feel like one is getting maybe sucked into the quicksand or into the earth.

It is a mutable sign though, so it has both the ability to move in to stabilize. So it's got those things going on. And for me it does have this energy of the Artisan of the practical improvement of daily life. Something that you do every day that at the end of your life will add value but right now, as you do it each time that there's no really big cheer squad or razzamatazz or gold medal for achieving your daily task, like your chores. And this is why the "Number 6" can also be a associated with obstacles or even enemies, because these are things that need our daily attention. If we do that, we live a healthy life. If we don't give our daily attention, things like the obstacles and the enemies can get away from us. And the debts, because the "6", the "Number 6" also relates to those things that we owe.

So it's interesting, has a real quality of applying one's attention to the material tasks that are perhaps unrewarding and in the present moment, but rewarding in the long term, one hopes. These are some thoughts about "Number 6", what about six in Enneagram, Katee?

[00:32:19] "6" in Enneagram

[00:32:19] Katee Glass: "6" in Enneagram is quite earthy actually. They call "6" the Loyalist, and it's about finding safety or strength within your ideas or affiliations. There can be a Family Loyalist: creating a safety zone and finding allies through family ties or personal warmth. There is also this element of taking action though with, maybe perhaps daily action as a Warrior subtype in Enneagram, developing personal strength through ideas or physical ability, finding order and safety through creating beauty and having impact in that way.

And then also there's another subtype called the Social Guardian, which is about doing one's duty which would be very much tied into what we discussed about "6" in a lot of ways.

[00:33:08] Fiona Marques: So that was "6". So they're really interesting, isn't it? These These links are, there is more than I expected...

[00:33:13] Katee Glass: .. Quite a bit.

[00:33:15] "7" in Vedic Astrology

[00:33:15] Fiona Marques: All right, so let's have a look then at "Number 7"in Vedic Astrology is now halfway around the ecliptic, so we've managed to cover 180 degrees of our journey. If we were in the Northern Hemisphere, it's the Sun has moved all the way through Spring and Summer, and this is the beginning of it turning to Autumn or the other way around if you live in the Southern Hemisphere. But whichever way, wherever you are on the Planet, it's a halfway point. We've reached, again, the Equinox. 

And in some ways this is where the "Hero's Journey" turns from being a journey that was focused on the material: where we got a mission, we gathered our resources, we explored what we could do, we found a home base, we looked up out of the detail and had a vision for where we wanted to go, and then we applied it daily to the improvement of the material world. "7" is this magical place of transformation where as we know, "7" in the archetype of the Zodiac would be Libra, "7" is where we turn something material into something else. It's like alchemy because we change this product into money. So we've used all of our time and effort to make a product that we sell in trade at the markets, and we get non-material thing in a way, money, right? It's a transaction from a material to non-material. And that money buys us the opportunity to use our time for other things or to, we, we gain a power from this alchemy transaction of stuff into non-stuff.

And this threshold of "7", I think opens up the whole rest of the "Hero's Journey" that we realise that there is a material truth to life. And we've explored that "1" through "6". So half the "Hero's Journey" is devoted to material. It's very important, and "7" opens up the other half of the journey where we realize that at the same time, the "Hero's Journey" is also a transcendent journey. It's also a journey of the non-material. 

So this is all associated with the "Number 7". The "7" is, once again, an action, cardinal sign. It has the Kama path, so a bit of freedom to explore the unique desires of the person. It's Masculine. And it's that uneven number, creates this dynamic energy when we have that one extra beat, in the musical bar, it's one extra.

And of course, because of its strong association with trade, we think about this as representing all of those diplomatic transactions. The marketplace trading. Once again, we see Venus is the ruler. So the use of language in negotiation diplomatically to get a win-win hopefully for both parties.

The "Number 7" is 180 degrees away from the "Number 1". So it is also the mirror for the "Number 1", and therefore it represents the other in Vedic Astrology and therefore the partner, the intimate partner or the business partner as we know. The "Number 7" has so much to do with trade. Those are some ideas about "7".

How does that sound to you, Katee?

[00:36:55] Katee Glass: "7" is absolutely a, an Enneagram, a Kama based, pleasure based number. It's called the Positive Planner or the Enthusiast . Specifically around enjoying life, but also planning for a better future. It's seeking fun in life's pleasure sometimes can maybe be a bit excessive in some ways, but specifically because they enjoy family style gatherings and business and things.

There's also the Adventure subtype, which is like the fascination with people or ideas leading to a sales ability. Speaking to that merchant that can come with "7" in some ways or that exchange. And then also there's this Visionary archetype, which is about making personal sacrifices for a group role.

 There's also this little bit "9" tone undertone here with perhaps what we would call Sagittarius in some ways. But I can definitely see the relation.

[00:37:51] "8" in Vedic Astrology

[00:37:51] Fiona Marques: Interesting. All right, now let's turn to "8" because we were, we already flagged that this has maybe got a link with Enneagram "Number 5". So "8" in Vedic Astrology is a it's a magical transition between "7" and "9". If "7" is the partner and "9" is the marriage, "8" is what we all have to do to navigate a sustainable, long-term relationship.

And it's therefore the deep and hidden things, the deep and hidden psychology that's underneath the surface, and it is represented by Scorpio, if we were to look at the archetypes of the Zodiac. Scorpions, those animals that live in caves and are comfortable exploring the underworld, and this is what the "8" is inviting us to explore hidden knowledge and the inner truth of ourselves.

It is once again, a Moksha path. So whereas Cancer was showing us the Moksha path, or the "Number 4" was showing us the Moksha path of connecting to one's Heart and emotions and being open in the Heart. The "Number 8" is showing us the Moksha path of fearlessly fear - less - ly exploring our inner psychology, the, all of that esoteric and occult knowledge like Astrology, like Enneagram, being fearless in our pursuit of the truth even when that means exploring the darkest caves. 

And as this is a water sign, once again, it's the darkest, deepest water, the blackest water, and all of those scary monsters that live in the dark water. It's about fearlessly going through that journey and surviving and coming out the other side.

And because of that exploration, we often think of the "Number 8" as being associated with investigation and research, analysis, even spying, being interested in really understanding something and digging and digging, finding out more and more, even if what you find is scary or disturbing.

So there's a fearlessness to the successful "Number 8". How does that resonate for you?

[00:40:12] "8" in Enneagram

[00:40:12] Katee Glass: Oh, very much actually the "8" in Enneagram is called the Protector or the Challenger , so that the fearlessness to dive into something. A couple of the subtypes specifically are around survival. So the Survivalist is one that's about controlling the territory to ensure the survival, but and generous with family and a bit more guarded with others. Perhaps playing on that guardedness perhaps of the "8"s subtype with Scorpio a little bit. 

There's also this archetype of the Commander where it's about power, taking possession of things and seeking the safety to surrender with a partner, which I know can sometimes be the work of a "Number 8" . And then also in the social subtype generating enthusiasm and power for social causes, but sometimes maybe having blind spots about personal needs.

So definitely has that, that Scorpionic, maybe "8" undertone in some ways specifically around the areas of maybe self-preservation and but also guarding and protecting.

[00:41:12] "9" in Vedic Astrology

[00:41:12] Fiona Marques: It's really fascinating, isn't it? And I don't know what's going to happen now because we're at "Number 9", which is Sagittarius if we were labeling it by the Zodiac animal. It is a sign once again, it's a Masculine sign. We are revisiting Dharma for the final time in our journey along the "Hero's Journey". It's our last chance to calibrate what is the Dharmic direction for my life. And that's why the Sagittarius archetype with the Centaur and the arrow, it's lining up that, that sense of direction. "Where do I want to aim high? Now that I understand that life is both material and non-material". 

It is a mutable sign. So it's got both the ability to move and to stabilize. It is associated with culture and knowledge and religion and faith. It's ruled by Jupiter. So it gets this very spiritual kind of energy. And, this Sattvic or auspicious, Dharmic kind of reset the, if you're looking at the chart in South Indian, it's as we turn the corner towards going up towards Pisces. So it's, it's even got that looking up and aiming high with our arrow. And what about "Number 9" in Enneagram?

[00:42:42] "9" in Enneagram

[00:42:42] Katee Glass: Again, very much having some overlaps. It it, we call "9" the Mediator, the Peacemaker specifically about living in a harmony. And there are quite a few undertones though that could go to other Piscean, but also the "9" Sagittarian in some ways. Specifically around one subtype, the Seeker within the Mediator Peacemaker "Number 9", Enneagram. It's about seeking union with God, nature or an intimate partner, but it can sometimes lead to both connectedness and distractedness. It's very receptive.

There's also another subtype called the Collector, which is about focusing on comfort and, but collecting it so that other people can have access to that as well. And also a Community Benefactor, so promoting the welfare of the community or group through participation, but it can sometimes lose themselves in a group.

So it's a, it's actually quite interesting. It has "9", "11", "12" undertones a little bit but I could definitely see how "9" would be pretty related as well.

[00:43:38] Fiona Marques: Yeah. Interesting. I was definitely hearing that number "11" there. 

[00:43:42] "10 in Vedic Astrology

[00:43:42] Fiona Marques: So just to wrap up our give the fullness, I should maybe talk about "10", "11", and "12". And as we do each of those, see where they, if they do match with the Enneagram. So let's briefly look at "Number 10", which would be Capricorn if we were allocating the animal rather than the number.

It is a Female, Earth sign and it's really where the rubber hits the road. So it's great in "Number 9" to have all the ideals and all of the vision, all of the faith, but Capricorn is asking to turn that into action. It's a cardinal sign. It's on the Artha path of work. So it wants to see this being, this work being done in the material as well as the non-material world.

In Vedic Astrology it has a complex mythological creature, but it's can be seen like a crocodile or a, some kind of sea monster. And in in Western, we have that sea goat idea that the archetype that can walk on the land but move through the water as well and can dominate both. So Capricorn really here, "Number 10", bringing a lot of the richness of the Hero's Journey together. It represents the knees of the cosmic body, and we can think of Capricorn as being the kind of place, or "Number 10" being the kind of place that brings us to our knees. So it asks everything from us. And the "Number 10", the 10th House is the highest in the sky at the moment of birth. So the 10th is also associated with work in that way. It's what we are known for, the work that we do outside of the home and can therefore bring a lot of status. 

So this "Number 10", which is the "1" of the initial plus impulse plus the zero. It's amplifying the visibility and the fame potential of this "Number 10". However, it is grounding it in the Earth and the Artha path, meaning that if we do our hard work, that status potential is there. And it's ruled by Saturn, which is a Planet that rewards hard work as well. 

And the imagery that goes with "10" is of finding that path through the densest terrain. So through the swamps or through the forests to be resilient, persistent, and not give up and find that way through. So these are some of the energies that go with the "Number 10" in Vedic Astrology.

Do you hear that also resonating with Enneagram as well, Katee?

[00:46:32] Katee Glass: Yes, there's definitely some aspects specifically around building and the ability to create some structure. To create what you want. And I'm trying to think of what number would probably be most closely related. Maybe a little bit of "1" with a Reformer. "1" definitely has this Earth undertone that I'm not quite sure where it falls, but it also has that Mars undertone as well. But not, I don't for, I don't see any one-to-one connections actually with "10", funny enough.

[00:47:06] "11" in Vedic Astrology

[00:47:06] Fiona Marques: Interesting. And then let's roll into "11" because we have touched on that already with perhaps the "Number 9" from Enneagram. "11" is the "1" plus the "1" the "10" plus the "1" and it, because it's got the "1" and the "1", relates to "2". So we're really getting some richness in the numbers by the time we get to "11".

And in terms of the "Hero's Journey", this is where the Hero has come back with the Holy Grail, whatever it was, the Quest and returning this to the people, to the village. In the archetype of Zodiacs, it would be represented by Aquarius, the man emptying the pot, meaning that we need to share these resources, this Quest that was so difficult and all the learning that we've been through, the only purpose of that is, is to give it back, is to create for our community the resources that they can all share. 

So in terms of the types of terrain that are associated with the "Number 11", there's ideas of ponds and lakes and, areas where you store grain. You know how these are things that help a community get through the Winter or through the hard times is if we can store things like water and food, then life becomes much easier.

It's also really interesting, this idea of the "1" and the "1". "2" equals who have their own identity and are in complete harmony and recognition to each other in the "Number 11". So the number "11" has that energy of the commune and working together as a band of equals. It is a fixed sign it's an Air sign and it's on the Kama path.

It does have Saturn as its ruler. So it is Tamasic in that way. It's focused on solving real world problems by creating resources and community community of peers and community of equals. So "Number 11", and we'd already mentioned, we thought that matched with a bit of "Number 9". Is that right? 

[00:49:23] Katee Glass: Yes. I, as you talk about that I actually, yeah, "Number 9" is quite an "11" in a, in some ways the Peacemaker, Mediator, living in harmony. There's, that harmony buzzword, like he sometimes might make you think of something else. But when I look at all the other things, collecting goods and for the greater goods seeking union with God or nature promoting welfare of the community or group, it's more so the shadow I think of the "Number 9" that can, with losing itself or disconnectiveness, that might go into "Number 12" in some ways.

[00:49:57] "12" in Vedic Astrology

[00:49:57] Fiona Marques: Interesting. That nicely segways us to "Number 12", which is the end of the "Hero's Journey" path and the end of the ecliptic, and represented in Pisces as well, the "Number 12". And, as we have completed our Hero journey and we have captured the Holy Grail, we've returned it to the community and created all of this shared wealth, part of the importance of that in "11" is that we need to pour the water out of the pot in order to achieve "Number 12", which is transcending. It's our final Moksha House, transcending this "Hero's Journey" altogether. So often we find in those epic "Star Wars" or "Lord of the Rings" or the epic kind of mythologies that having completed the quest, the Hero actually can't integrate into society anymore because that Quest is finished and they're now transcending, leaving to their next cycle around this ecliptic. So the "12th" has this energy of expansiveness and transcendence. It's a Moksha House. It's ruled by Jupiter. It's symbol is two fish swimming in opposite directions, and the fish have no feet, right? This is the one archetypal Animal / Human with no feet. So it really is completely of another world, going to another world. 

It is a Water sign. And the places associated with the "Number 12" are places of pilgrimage and retreat, but also all of those institutions that are away from the marketplace, like hospitals and hospices, places where people recover and recuperate.

And as you were mentioning, Katee, the "12" can have of course, this transcendent spiritual evolution, but it can also have the escaping, avoiding. So if there are things in the chart that are very difficult and heavy, one might like to escape through the "Number 12". So it can be a place of distractions and addictions and whereas the "11th" might represent all of the gains we accumulate, the 12th is the dispersing of all of that, including if it is through escaping the dispersing of our attention, of our auspicious path, of our righteousness can all be spread out through escaping and avoiding. So those are some words about "Number 12". And I think you were saying that it has a link to "Number 9"?

[00:52:44] Katee Glass: Yeah, I would say so. That's the closest one as I'm thinking about the others. None quite get at the transcendence or the connectedness that "Number 9" does as the Peacemaker, the Mediator. So it does, it's interesting, now that we've arrived at the last one, it's, there's quite a few overlaps in some way and it almost feels like it stops. But then "9" encompasses a lot of the last couple that we spoke about, but maybe with the exception of Capricorn in some ways, or excuse me "10" . But interesting. So interesting. A lot more overlaps than I don't know, I didn't have any preconceived notions, but there are quite a few overlaps

[00:53:23] Fiona Marques: Yeah. Yeah. There's, there are overlaps, but there are subtle and at times significant differences as well. So then let's highlight what are some of the main differences that stood out to you as we went through that "1" - "12".

[00:53:38] Triads in Enneagram

[00:53:38] Katee Glass: So with Enneagram we separate into Triads and because we separate into Triads we find that specifically within the Body or Gut Triad, we have numbers "1", "8" and "9". And so it it doesn't quite follow, that procedural numerological order that perhaps we would have with let's say like "7", "8", "9", or, "8", "9", "10" .

So it does add in that complication a little bit. But it's that Triad is specifically around moving from the Gut or from the Body, the one being the Reformer and really working with the physical environment, high standards, but also in like a Martian based way with energy taking action.

"8" being the Protector or the Challenger a little bit Scorpio yeah, definitely an "8" in a lot of ways and maybe embodying that Scorpionic archetype that comes with "8". But then "9" kind of encompasses in a lot of ways like "9", "11", "12". So it's a it's interesting. It's almost like I see maybe the Body Triad as like this overlap between perhaps "11", "12", "1" for Astrology most closely.

Even if there's some other things that, that maybe some Enneagram numbers relate to for other numbers in numerologically, within Vedic Astrology.

[00:54:59] Fiona Marques: Interesting. And so what are the other Triads then Katee?

[00:55:02] Katee Glass: The next Triad, so coming after after "1", we have "2", "3", "4", which is the Heart Triad. And so this is somebody who leads from the Heart. So "2" being the Helper, the Caretaker about relationship. "3" being the perfect Individualist . It's funny because they have the Heart Triad definitely has like a Water quality in some ways, but also some Fire as well. There is this, it's funny, like we talked about "2", perhaps being a little bit like "4", but also it is a little bit like "2" as well. "3" definitely being like "3" and perhaps the Gemini archetype and "4" also being like Cancer. So it might actually follow that "2", "3", "4" pretty nicely. The way it would within Numerology, within Vedic Astrology. But yes, very Heart based in this realm. And then we have going after "4", we have "5", "6", "7", which is the Mind Triad. And so I believe those also were quite aligned in some ways.

[00:56:09] The Mind in Vedic Astrology

[00:56:09] Fiona Marques: I think this is where your richness as an astrologer, is Enneagram contributes to that, right? Because we probably have different Triads in Vedic Astrology, and so it's when you mix one matrix with another, you're really going get some very powerful insights because as you are speaking, like I, I don't know that there's a direct connection, but I always think of the Mind in the numbers as being "3", "4", "5".

That "3" is the Thinking Mind and the problem solving mind. "4" is the Heart and sort of education, the Mind being refined. And then "5" is clearly the Intellect and the intelligence. So I, when I look at someone's chart, I'm really interested in what's going on in the "3", "4", "5", whether the Mind is more closely associated with "3", or whether it's more closely associated with "5", and where that's happening.

Of course, then the "8" comes in a little bit to the Mind because the "8" is like that hidden part of the Mind. You also want to see what's going on in somebody's chart around "8" when we want to understand the Mind. 

[00:57:19] The Heart in Vedic Astrology

[00:57:19] Fiona Marques: Whereas the Heart space in the chart, "4" really screams the Heart in Vedic Astrology, doesn't it? "4", because it represents the emotions. It's linked to Cancer, it's linked to Water. It's a Feminine sign. So we think of that. However, it is the "Number 5" that is associated with the heart muscle. We've got another space to look there. And then we have the Planets themselves. Where does the Moon go? Might tell us something about the emotions. Where does Venus go? And also the "8" can be a very emotional number. And "12", all of those Moksha Houses have that "4", "8" and "12" they tell us something about our emotions. 

[00:57:58] The Body in Vedic Astrology

[00:57:58] Fiona Marques: And the Body. We really give to the, the 1st House represents the Body and then we spread the whole body, the Cosmic Body among all 12 of the signs.

So it gets a bit dispersed. Yeah. So they overlap but don't as well. That's what I mean. I think it's going to make you a very rich astrologer. Our initial conversation that prompted this podcast was about the essay. I'm just imagining how rich this essay is going to be because there's just all these different layers.

Yes. What about now we've talked a little bit about Triads, which I love the idea of Body, Heart and Mind. So that was really fascinating. There's Wings. Did you already talk about Wings? And what are Wings?

[00:58:41] Wings in Enneagram

[00:58:41] Katee Glass: That's a great question. I have not talked about Wings. So within Enneagram, of course, like any layered archetypal framework there's many ways that your number can be unique. I spoke quite a bit, I think, in comparing the numbers about the subtype and that's about like your motivation.

However, there's also this ability to have a Wing on either side of a number that also adds layers to it. So meaning you can and you can actually have Wings that overlap. You can have Wings that are within the same Triad or Wings that overlap Triad. So I'll give mine as an example. I am a, in Enneagram, a 4 Wing 3.

So I am very Heart based in general, but so I have that Romantic Individualist as well as the Achiever, Performer in some ways. Whereas somebody might be a 4 Wing 5 where they have that Romantic Individualist, maybe that's Cancerian archetype, but they also have the "5" that goes into the Mind Triad, which, the Observer, the Investigator to acquire knowledge and expertise.

We also said that the "5" in Enneagram was like an "8" in some ways. Seeking safety and autonomy in a home and keeping things confidential, seeking mastery of symbols and totem. So it's interesting because it adds another layer where you might not sit squarely in one. So it, it adds more depth.

[00:59:58] Complexity and Ease of Use

[00:59:58] Fiona Marques: Yep. And I think this is, as I've, in my corporate background come more from MBTI. But let's say come from a corporate world where it's, it can be very helpful to use a typology, whatever one your organization puts its faith in, can help teams, people in teams to understand each other's strengths and cover each other's weaknesses and maybe just not get offended by the differences between people and find a useful way of moving forward with those. 

So it's quite nice when the model is is able to be grasped relatively quickly. And I think that's the first layer of Enneagram, isn't it? In that 9 numbers, split into three Triads, helps people "Okay. I can orientate myself." 

Whereas Astrology, because it immediately has 12 is, and then it has the Houses on top of that, and then the Planet's on top of that. And it, there's such a richness, a complexity, a detail level, and a person to person specificity about Astrology that in some ways doesn't make it as useful as a corporate model because as soon as you say some truism about Aries, or something, generically true about Leo, you have to quantify that and qualify it by what exactly is going on with Mars and what's going on with the Sun and what House is it in? And, what ascendant is it? And you really, the nuances are coming in there. 

So it seems to me that Enneagram has a framework that's maybe, like you were saying right at the beginning, something that people can find useful relatively immediately. That doesn't necessarily link them with too much esoteric language. It's just describing different people's motivations or drives.

[01:01:45] Katee Glass: Absolutely. And I will say as well, there's this aspect to Enneagram. I hadn't mentioned that it really leans itself well into corporate America, which is the where you go in times of growth or stress. So the Enneagram has connections to other numbers. That's why it looks like a matrix in some ways.

And I'll give an example here. So I'm just going to keep using "Type 4" because that's what what I most closely am familiar with. In times of stress a "Type 4", they'll become the shadow of "Type 2" overly involved, maybe a little bit plea. However, when they're moving in their direction of integration or growth their emotional turbulence can actually become more objective and principled, like healthy "1"s or Reformers.

And so corporate America is, that's where I learned Enneagram loves to talk about growth and stress. 

[01:02:34] Fiona Marques: That Enneagram is maybe something that can be grasped at least at the very basic level, it can be grasped in a quick way that is maybe useful. But then it has these underlying more and more depth and detail if you want to keep plugging into that. And then you can get to the specificity of it when you start adding the three different types that are inside each number and then the Wings and then, so I just wanted to highlight that.

And then the other thing is that the bouncing around, like from an Astrology point of view, the bouncing around of the different numbers, because it's not necessarily sequential, that it's not embedded to say that a "1" is moving towards a "2" and a "2" is moving towards a "3" and a "3" is a better version of a "4". And it's not like that, it's not hierarchical.

[01:03:22] Katee Glass: It's not, yeah, it's absolutely not. Yes, within business, it's a really easily graspable concept, but then there's also so many opportunities to do, like further team building and further diving deep into things and, personal development because of the layers that then, show your motivation, your subtype, and then you know where you go in stress and growth and being conscious of that.

[01:03:44] Exaltation, Debilitation and Levels of Development within Enneagram

[01:03:44] Fiona Marques: Any other things, because I don't know enough about Enneagram to maybe even ask the questions, but is there anything else that you would like to share about Enneagram in contrast to Astrology?

[01:03:56] Katee Glass: I would say in complement to Astrology within Enneagram there's also levels of development for each type. And they break them into and which I would compare almost to let's say Exaltation of a Planet or a number and, maybe it's shadow. There's 9 levels for each Enneagram type in terms of how they operate. So there's unhealthy levels, there's average levels, and then healthy levels. So in complementing Astrology, it really becomes like a personal choice as to what you are aware of and what you lean into. Cause all signs, all placements, all numbers have their gifts and their, their shadows. And the Enneagram is the same in that way.

[01:04:35] Fiona Marques: Yeah that is really interesting. I have seen that. If people want to go onto Enneagram the website, they actually delineate those layers of what we might call an Exalted "3" or "4" or "7" or whatever number you are, and also Debilitated and all of the layers in between. So a little bit like we have the Dignities from Debilitation to Great Enemy to Neutral, Friend, Great Friend and moving our way up to Exaltation. Enneagram has also delineated how that motivation shows up when it's Debilitated, when it's in Great Friend, when it's in Neutral. Yeah. So that is a nice complement to Astrology, isn't it?

[01:05:15] Katee Glass: It is very much yes. So there's yeah, it's very similar in that respect that it can be however you are most conscious of.

[01:05:23] Fiona Marques: Yeah. And do you find when you work with people that you do see like for example, you spoke of "Number 4", having being say perhaps a "4" on the Enneagram, would you then more often then see things in Cancer in that person's chart or you haven't had enough experience to say that there is some correlation or not?

[01:05:46] Katee Glass: Oh yes. So actually, one of my six month program and we go through every single Archetypal Modality. So all six of them Ayurveda, Astrology, Human Design, Myers-Briggs, Clifton Strengths and Enneagram. And the amount of correlation I see to certain numbers and certain placements is astronomical. It's really interesting.

I do see a lot of Cancer with the "Number 4". A lot oftentimes, like the Wings will provide the I would say color that sometimes comes with the depth of a chart as well. Also quite a big correlation within Navamsha. So it gets very correlative.

[01:06:26] Fiona Marques: That's super fascinating. That's what I was saying at the beginning about astrology, the bare bones of it in some ways is this number music, this the harmonies of the numbers that are going on. And that at some level that's resonating through all the typologies. We might use different words, but recognizing the same resonant frequency patterns coming up.

[01:06:49] Experience of the Asheville Vedic Astrology Apprenticeship Program on teachable.com

[01:06:49] Fiona Marques: So Katee, before I let you go today, let me wrap up by checking in with you about a couple of extra things. First of all, share with our listeners a little bit about what has your experience been of being on the Apprenticeship Program, because obviously you've come to our Asheville Vedic Astrology Apprenticeship Program that's on teachable.com with a wealth of experience and knowledge already about so many different typologies and about Astrology itself.

And we know that in the Asheville Vedic Astrology Apprenticeship Program, it's very much based on building from the ground up. So we start and spend hours and hours talking about the Numerology of the Rasis and signs, which is a little bit what we've been talking about today, and then we build up over nine semesters covering the nine core layers that an astrologer needs to understand. 

What's it been like for you is because I get this question about people who already have existing knowledge, so can you share a little something about, for someone who already knows quite a lot about Astrology and about type and esoteric models already, what's it like so far being on the Apprenticeship Program?

[01:08:05] Katee Glass: I was actually just reflecting on this the other day to a friend, and I would say overall it is a, a building for me. My background in Astrology it actually started at a young age. My first book that I bought, I think I was 13. I bought this book called Your Secret Moon from Otto's Bookstore because I didn't resonate with my Taurus Sun sign and found out I was an Aries Moon. And all that to say a lot of my basis when I first started was, reading like pop culture things and, maybe social media a bit. And then, I, I learned of Vedic Astrology when I was in Ayurveda school through Ryan and just blew my mind and I was like, wow I want to learn from him because he most I think most importantly references the texts and the wealth of knowledge that you can find in the text about the signs. I now see the signs and even, and the Numerology aspect of it is also blowing my mind, and I see them in a completely, maybe not completely different way, but it removes a lot of the stereotypes, perhaps the overused stereotypes that pop Astrology that you often hear can convey and actually gets at the root of what it was meant to be. The way the texts are written, allows you as an astrologer to really develop your intuitive metaphorical ability of what you perceive the science to be. And then, ultimately makes you a better astrologer in that way. So I've, I have found the, especially in these first beginning semesters, that anything but boring, it is the most interesting thing I think I've gone in terms of training that I've gone through for Astrology and helpful, useful, all of that.

[01:09:40] Fiona Marques: Great, Katee. Yeah, because that's a question that I really appreciate your answer as I came into the course totally with zero knowledge. So I very much appreciate you sharing with others that even when one comes with a high working level of knowledge, there's still valuable content here in the Apprenticeship Program.

And tell us a little bit about what's, what is the assessment side like, because not all programs have assessment at, I know we're at an early stage, but just tell us something about what's, what does it feel like to be handing in papers again and how does it affect your learning and your confidence in yourself?

[01:10:17] Katee Glass: In terms of being a Virgo rising, I love it. I want to be told how to be better. And, I'll give some context. I had been in a Vedic, Astrology self paced program that didn't have assessments and I didn't feel like I was grasping the knowledge as much as I could have. And so in terms of like my experience with assessments, for me feels really good to go through these quizzes to write essays because then I'm actually getting practical feedback on how I'm interpreting things ways that it could be better as well as ways that, I really, hit the nail on the head. And so that's a really nice component for me to actually integrate everything I'm learning, not just listen, not just say, "Okay, I think that's landing" to actually know that I am getting it.

And then also just, with having to do the assignments, it creates content for yourself. I'm already thinking about how I'm going to translate some of these things into some of my posts and ways of sharing with the world. So very effective and helpful.

[01:11:12] Conclusion and contacting Katee Glass

[01:11:12] Fiona Marques: Great. Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that, Katee. And just finally to wrap up your contact details will be in the description, but for people who want to work with you, what's the best way of getting in touch with you?

[01:11:25] Katee Glass: Sure. So if you want to learn a little bit more about me and what I do, my website is Inner Science Co (so "c" "o") .com. And then you can also get in touch with me through email. It's my name, glass dot k k a t e, actually at gmail.com. Those would be the two best ways. I also do have an Instagram inner.science.co if you prefer that as well.

[01:11:51] Fiona Marques: Thank you Katee. That's great. And thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge and helping me learn a bit more about Enneagram and I've really enjoyed seeing where there are connections, seeing where there areas of space, where there's more distance between any Enneagram and Astrology.

It gives me lots of things to contemplate and continues my interest in these bare bone numbers and how fundamental they are to our experience of living in our experience of karma. So thank you very much Katee, and I look forward to having you back on the podcast to talk about MBTI sometime in the future.

[01:12:29] Katee Glass: That would be wonderful. Thank you for having me.

[01:12:31] Fiona Marques: Okay. Bye everyone. Talk to you next time.